Interview with Stephen Oppenheimer

On Pyramid, Geological Study Required

Prof Stephen Oppenheimer
Sumber :
  • VIVAnews/ Arfi Bambani Amri

VIVAnews - Stephen Oppenheimer gained its fame across Southeast Asia after publishing "Eden in the East: The Drowned Continent of Southeast Asia," a book which hypothesizes that the Southeast Asian subcontinent of Sundaland was home to a rich and original culture that was dispersed when Sundaland was mostly submerged and its population moved westward. In his book, he cites evidence from geology, archaeology, genetics, linguistics, and folklore. 

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Oppenheimer is a medical doctor who has lived in Southeast Asia between 1973 and 1990s. 

The book focuses on one such part of the continental shelf: the region between Malaysia, Sumatra, Java, Borneo, Thailand, Vietnam, China and Taiwan, which was largely inhabitable during the Ice Age. 

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Oppenheimer writes that the region had been hit by three "great floods," which in turn triggered its inhabitants to find new lands. 

He says the last "great flood" occurred around 8,000 years ago. 

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Nowadays, Oppenheimer's story has been part of discussions set up by the Ancient Catasthropic Disaster Team - under the coordination of a Presidential adviser Andi Arief. The team has been conducting researches on a number of sites deemed having historical values in efforts to seek evidence on how ancient catasthropes had affected early civilization. 

How does Oppenheimer respond over the findings made by the Ancient Catasthropic Disaster Team? VIVAnews journalist Arfi Bambani interviewed Oppenheimer on Wednesday, Feb 8.

How do you see the findings concluded by the Ancient Catasthropic Disaster Team on the alleged pyramid structure in Indonesia? 

The most important thing is to find out whether the pyramid is a monument or geological structure. Because, earlier, it turns out that Yonaguni is not a monument. It’s a geological structure. So, it’s a natural rock formation. But maybe there’s a modification on the top of it. Yonaguni is an example of a geological structure that looks like a monument. But it’s not a monument.

Is it final to say that the 'pyramid' is a geological structure?

I read about it. I’m not a geologist. There’s a geologist who is interested. He went there for diving (to confirm it). 

Did you mention it in your book?

Yes. When my book was going to the press in 1998, the pictures of Yonaguni came out. My publisher said, "put them in". If you read the English edition, you will see manmade modification by man or geological structure.

So, you must understand scientific quotation for dismissal. I’m not saying I don’t believe in it. I’m saying I need more evidence before I can make any comment.

How do you see the latest finding in Sadahurip?

All I can see in VIVAnews is a picture of rock formation that could be volcanic. It’s just a picture. What we need is geological investigation. All I’m saying doesn’t mean I don’t believe it, but I need more evidence. Evidence should be published in scientific journal.

[Oppenheimer then asked VIVAnews to open his book, Eden in the East]

The book was published in 1998 in English. Since then, we’ve done a lot of research, and we've published our research on scientific journals. I describe the research in the book. You can see the reference here at the back of the book. It was published in many journals. 

You said a great culture must have cultivation system, sailing knowledge and so on. Did you find any of the their traces in Sundaland?

I do see. You should look at any domestic animal, like cattle. In Indonesia, you have your own domestic cattle called sapi. It was domesticated, a long-long time ago. Chicken that we have in the west are also domesticated here in South East Asia. The age of domesticating is 16.000 years old. Pigs and dogs are all domesticated in Malay Peninsula. 

The swamp buffalo was domesticated here. It appeared in cylinder shield in Mesopotamia of third millennium BC. Domestic animals came from Southeast Asia to western civilization. It’s a pictorial evidence. The homeland of swamp buffalo is here. It had appeared 4,500 thousand years ago in Mesopotamia.

If you look at human genetics, you see the effect of the rise in sea level, causing people out, disperse to Malacca, Nusa Tenggara and Sulawesi. In the first place, they went to the nearest place, which is Sulawesi, Lombok, Sumba and also the Philippines. They must go by sailing boat.

What about Bali?

Bali was connected to Java. Bali was part of the mainland. Lombok was the first island east of Sunda continent before the sea level rise. So you got evidence of sailing, you got evidence of fishing in Timor. You got evidence of 10-thousand-year-old fish hook and sea shell. And the shell tool found in eastern Indonesia, I found like one in the Pacific. It’s very-very old.

The elements of the Stone Age are domestication, pottery agriculture, horticulture, sailing and fishing. Remember, agriculture is not the only form of domestication. Indonesia has domesticated root crops like taro and yam. The Papuans, they domesticated bananas. So, the first bananas in the world came from Papua.

Is it a genetic evidence?

No. It’s archaeological evidence. 

How about rice? I was informed that rice DNA came from India.

The rice genetic story is very complicated. Let’s start off with the archaeological date. Then we'll go back to genetics. The earliest rice in Southeast Asia is found in Sarawak, Borneo. It was around 5,200 years ago. Archaeologists found a broken pot. Inside that pot, they have grain of rice. They use carbon from those grains to date them. And the date is 5.200 years. But it comes down from Malay Peninsula, not from Taiwan. So the oldest rice come from Malay Peninsula and is quite localized in north Borneo. The paddy rice in eastern Indonesia, it doesn’t arrive until 2.000 years ago. It's quite recent. 

So, what did our ancestors eat?

Root crops like taro, sago. Sago is quite important because it grows wild. In Mentawai, the island offshore of West Sumatra, they are harvesting sago. Sago is also important in Papua.  The only root crop that doesn't come from here is sweet potato. It comes from America. Beside, all the other root crop are locally domesticated. In addition, we’ve got bananas, cannarium nut— the nut produced from a tree. But still, a lot of people are cropping them. It still occurs in Nusa tenggara. Coconut is also domesticated here.

Back to sago. There’s research on Sriwijaya saying that the secret of the kingdom is sago. They don’t have to cultivate it, just cutting it down, let it for a week, and then you get the sago. How is that?

The technology for sago is very old. You found it throughout Papua and the Pacific as well. And it doesn’t have to be cultivated. In a sense, it allows people to stay in the same place. They don’t have to move around like hunter and gatherer. In swamp area, you will get a lot of sago.

If you think about Polynesian, they don’t grow rice. They eat sago, taro, yam and later on. But, the product of Polynesian comes from this region.

I’m going back to your first question; I mean I’m not looking for monument. If somebody finds monument and he’s very pride, then it’s good evidence, a monument of civilization. Because you have to have civilization to build monument. But you don’t have to have monument to prove civilization of the Neolithic. Monument is the peak, the final product of the developed civilization. The root of the civilization is how to feed the people and how to get a city. 

Sailing is the Neolithic skill, not hunting and gathering. Sailing is the evidence of Neolithic activities. Fishing with complex tools is the evidence of civilization. Without a large supply of food, you can’t feed population that builds the city or the monument.

The Bugis people? Can they be the example of this?

You will see it tomorrow (during my speech). Most of the population expand when the flood occur. They are concentrated in Sulawesi, which is the homeland of the Bugis. Not just Bugis, but also Bajo or Orang Laut. 

When I wrote this book, I suggested the two trains’ hipotesis. There’s an early migration. Peter Bellwood said 3,500 years ago people came from Taiwan, spread to Indonesia and Philippines and killed everybody, and etc. I denied that. I’m not on that basis. It’s the other way around. People from Taiwan descended from here. 

In my hipotesis, there are two migrations. The earlier migration takes place 6,000 years ago. And I’m arguing that they’re the colonized part of Papua New Guinea, Bismarck, Admiralty Island. They traded obsidian all the way from there to Sabah. What I was saying is that 6,000 years ago people came to settle here (pointing Bismarck island).

Did they come from Maluku?

Yes. Someway further west; Borneo, Sulawesi. But it’s not a very far away. Then there’s another flow of people coming, smaller, with improved sailing technology of (about) 3,500 years ago.  And that new technology stimulated moving throughout the Pacific. So, there’s a slow train, and an express train. But it's mainly the technology. Small amount of genetics, large amount of technology.

And the center of expansion into Polynesia is in the Bismarck Island. Now, it’s explained in the new paper that is published. There’s a new paper here (pointing a journal wrote by P Soares, J Trejaut, Catherine Hill, Maru Mormina, and Stephen Oppenheimer in 2008 titled “Climate Change and post-glacial human dispersal in southeast Asia” in Molecular Biology and Evolution Journal). We dated a genetic marker that spread out in the Pacific, originated in this region 6,000 years ago. The ancestors came 8,000 years ago with the last flood. It does fit with the last flood. So you’ve got the early train that arrived 8,000 years ago and that suddenly expanded throughout Pacific. And it seems due to the sudden improvement in the sailing technology.

What I think about the expansion of the technology? Look at the words related to sailing. Most of them come from Indonesia, not Taiwan. Perahu, you don’t get it in Taiwan. So the real sailors were coming from this region. 

You said that there are some technologies brought to the west from here. How about the genetics?

It’s difficult. We have a huge population in the west. But there are movements of technology, chicken and pigs, the swamp buffalo that went to Mesopotamia. The picture of buffalo came from third millennium BC. It is the pictorial evidence. They must come here to Mesopotamia. 

Also the structure story of the flood. The record of Sumeria also left the record of the flood. They have a record of the flood, the last one (8,000 years ago).

How about the technology of the building, such as pyramid?

That if you find pyramid here. The problem is pyramid is a very simple structure. Archaeologists would argue that you can have independent invention of pyramid because it’s a simple structure. So many people say Atlantis is here, but archaeologists would say, “so what?” Because it’s a simple structure. If you take candi in Java, just go on, and it can become pyramid. If there is a pyramid here, older than the one in Egypt, it will be very significant. 

In Indonesia, there are two main genetics here, Austronesian and Melanesian. Why are they so different? 

Austronesia is a language family. You must not mistake language for race. Austronesia is a language family that spread all over Pacific. Language is not equal with race. I’m taking an example: French speaks the language like Latin today. But 2,000 years ago they spoke a language just like Celtics. French changes their language under the Roman Empire. Just like Singapore, they use English as a common language. See, language is not equal with race. It’s not equal with genetic flow.

If you look at Papua New Guinea, people along the coast there speaking Austronesia language. But they are very black and have curly hair. So, language is not equal with race. It’s not necessarily evident of racial spread from Taiwan. The other question is, in Papua New Guinea there are four main family languages. 

Does it mean that they are very old?

Yes, they are very old. The latest archaeological finding shows it's 45.000 years old and it may be older than that. Australian colonization, if you take the luminescence dates, they are about 50.000 to 60.000 years ago. Let's say people arrive from Afrika 70.000 years ago, just after Toba eruption; they got very quickly to New Guinea and Australia. If you look at the genetics of New Guinea and Australia, it suggests they were colonized at the same time from the same group.

All those time is needed to get to Australia and New Guinea, 60.000 years ago, people have to across the sea to get to Australia.

How did they do that?

By boat or by raft. Some people might say, just drifting by mistake. But it’s just one person. It will be lucky if they were two persons. But the evidence is the colonization of Australia by many people, different founding lines. It’s not easy but it’s possible by raft.

Don’t forget, there’s Solomon Island there in Pacific. They arrived around 30.000 years ago. These people are already sailing or canoeing or whatever, sailing for more than hundred miles.

These line here, that divide Bali and Lombok, Sulawesi and Borneo—Wallace line, has trapped people here (east Indonesia) in a relative isolation. You know what I mean by relative? Partial. If you can get there, you can get there again. This Wallace line acts as barrier, as filter. So the people here (east Indonesia), they are more relatively unmixed. They are more like first arrival. The New Guinean looks like African. 

What makes humans different?

If you look at the changes of the non-African, there is a change but not a big change. Some of them have a very small change. I put an example. The European has a very pale skin. The reason of the pale skin is one tiny single mutation in enzyme responsible of making skin dark. They interfere the production of the melanin in the European. They live in the north, and the weather is almost without the sun. Vitamin D is produced by the help of the sun. If the European has remained unpale, they could be vitamin D sufficient. So the mutation is the adaptation to live in the north. 

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